Hello everyone, welcome to the panel exploring crypto sovereignty
When I heard I was gonna do this panel got that I got to moderate this panel got really excited because we have in our company
three
very early Bitcoin adopters from North America
We have Jameson Lopp co-founder of Casa. He's a prolific
cypherpunk writer and researcher and he's also the editor of a web page that you can find at Bitcoin page
And I always recommend it to people because it has links to so many great resources
We also have Bruce Fenton who's managing director of chainstone labs
He's founder of an annual gathering called this Satoshi roundtable with some of the smartest Bitcoin entrepreneurs
He's been doing it since 2014. I was lucky enough to attend some of the early meetings
He's also a licensed broker dealer and then we have Erik Cason who's a very early employee at Coinbase and
He also worked at unchained from Texas and he's author of the book crypto sovereignty, which you can buy here at the conference
I don't know if you're still signing books. Yeah, I got four left. Oh, all right.
So yeah, just to kick off this panel, I thought I would I would ask our panelists, you know
What is crypto sovereignty and what does it mean to you personally?
the way I understand it is that crypto means I keep a secret and then sovereignty means something like the authority of a person to govern themselves
And so how do those two link together for you? And yeah, what is crypto sovereignty mean?
Jameson well, you know, I think one of the amazing things that we've managed to build with the Bitcoin protocol is
the ability to invert governance instead of creating a top-down hierarchical controlled organization
We have now created this organic bottom-up, you know emergent consensus whereby any of us who care to do so can participate in
the governance of Bitcoin the network and the protocol by running the software by validating the ledger by enforcing the rules to which we agree and
you know rather than democracy or voting or some other way of trying to decide that a majority or a certain percentage
Gets to overrule the rest of the others when it comes to governing the system and deciding the rules
This is crypto anarchy and and essentially we are each sovereign unto ourselves
But there's an interesting dichotomy that we'll get into with regard to the rest of the ecosystem
And you know how we connect to each other and create this thing that we call Bitcoin
Bruce well, that's a hard answer to to top that pretty much covers it
You know, I think the importance of what you you know
What you said you said privacy crypto is privacy and and the cyberpunk manifesto, which I think everybody should read often
It's only like a page and a half. It's short and it's it's you know word-for-word
It's probably one of the more influential pieces of of writing out there and and it mentions privacy more than anything
and I think that there's a big connection that a lot of people in the regular world don't see between privacy and control
You know because if you have the ability I see them as kind of linked and they're very linked in crypto
If you have control of your own private keys, you have control of your own
Financial sovereignty and I think that the you know, private privacy is so
you know washed away in today's world with with banking regulations and AML KYC and all of these kind of things that
That we really just don't need that don't make a lot of sense
And I think that you know, I can't be underestimated, you know, how?
You know how key that is to the you know, you know to to each individual sovereignty
Yeah, like the flip side of like oh, but if you have nothing to hide
You shouldn't be afraid is we can take from you whatever we want whenever we want to so yeah
There is a scary counterpart that a lot of people I think don't recognize
Eric what's what's I mean your book is called crypto sovereignty. So maybe I'm putting a lot of pressure on you right now, but
But what does it mean to you?
Well, I chose the word specifically because there's more than one meaning to it
and so as Jameson said earlier that it's really this understanding that we can invert the systems of power and that we can use
Cryptography in order to power a totally new sort of system that we're actually building with Bitcoin
but even more importantly sort of hidden in the idea of sovereignty in itself as you start to explore what
Cryptography is and the opportunities that cryptography can provide
You actually found that there there's a type of individual sovereignty that can give you deep
Empowerment against a world that does want to know everything about you does want to see everything and if you are quote
Hiding something and it's very important to understand that
This new radical world that we live in where we're being surveilled almost at every single point in our lives
We do have a methodology that we can actually counter that and we're slowly starting to build that together and as we build that to become
Bigger and bigger. It's not only going to create in my opinion a new sort of
form of organization for the world order
But we're also going to find much deeper personal sovereignty in terms of what we choose to expose to the world or keep private for
Own reasons, right? Yeah, you you put it really well in your book. I think where you say
Bitcoin offers a messianic promise in our nihilistic world
and that is the promise that yours is yours and that it is secured by the truth of
Cryptography and the promise it must always contain. I really like that
So I wanted to ask to all you because Jameson you mentioned to me when I was like asking
Asking you like what are some of the cypherpunks writings that inspired you?
You said like yeah, well, there's a lot there obviously
But we also have to think about how to extend these ideas into the future
And so I want to ask to all you like what are some of these these values of course, you know privacy being one of them
But maybe others too that you share with the cypherpunks and how would you like to see these extended?
Like where do you feel like things need to go for us to defend sovereignty in this this modern digital world?
Jameson, I mean a lot of it comes down to property rights, but I think that's one of the reasons that Bitcoin works. So well
is that we we can generally agree that you know he who owns the keys controls the coins.
It can get a lot more technical and nuanced than that but you do to the the game theory and really the
Fact that so many people are enforcing of the fundamental rule around that it it's
Not completely impossible, but highly implausible that you the rest of the system the you know
Bitcoin society as it were is not going to turn on you and you know revoke those property rights from you because it's
It's not in their best wishes to do so because they know that that could then happen to them. So, you know, I really like the the meme
I think Michael Goldstein used it was a reservoir dogs. We're like Mexican standoff.
Everybody's armed and everybody's watching everybody. Everybody's pointing a gun at everybody else and we're actually all safer as a result
Yeah, and the cool thing is like we don't need to be friends, right?
We just have to kind of you do you me do me and and just respect that basic idea of like yeah
We can agree to disagree
Mmm, Bruce. What's your take on where things need to go?
Yeah, I think we need to push exactly that mindset.
It has to be a mindset shift because the the tyrants out there don't have this mindset and they control the media and they push
These very damaging and harmful ideas on the people, you know
Augustin Carstens who's the sort of king of the central banks?
He's the banker of the bankers and he had a quote a while ago. He said, you know in favor of CBDC's
He says we don't know where a hundred dollar bill goes right now. And my reaction is
Dude, why should you know? It's none of your business
It's none of your business what I do with my hundred dollars and from all of economic history right here in this city
Hundreds of years ago you could walk right down the street and you could buy stocks with gold
the very first stock that was ever created and and they didn't have these kind of rules and
It's not their business. And the idea that it is is just deeply fundamentally broken. So we need a mindset a
mind shift for individuals to realize that this is a human right privacy is a human right you have a right to you earned your money you have
A right to do whatever you want with it, and it's not government's business at all
We don't need any AML any KYC any visibility whatsoever at all. We must push against that and and completely reject it.
Eric I'd actually take a dark take on what you just said and I'd say it absolutely is their business and their entire business
It's knowing and seeing what you're doing just deal
And to make reasons to steal from you and one of the things that really blew my mind when I started exploring this was I realized
It what bitcoins offering it's not saying hey if you secure your private keys
We will give you access networks that we have to and that there's a strong demarcation line of it's not that I can't
It's not that I want to steal your Bitcoin and I could it's that I fundamentally can't and to me that
particularly in our world of modernity like this actually becomes something that changes our relationships to humans now because
Particularly with the conflicts that are going on the world today
I can send Bitcoin directly to anybody
Immediately right now in whatever need they have so long as they can get an internet connection somewhere and particularly if people are fleeing from
Endemic violence war and other things that are occurring in the world today like this becomes a rescuing object that can actually
Give them a lifeline to get out of these conflicts and situations
And just to relate back to your earlier point to me one of the the most important cypherpunk documents is the declaration of independence
Of cyberspace and to me like this specifically is a document that reserves for us saying hey
This is a tool that we built for you
It provides new powers and sovereignty and furthermore your government doesn't understand it and wants to control because it
terrifies them because they know and understand that this
Radically challenges their power in a way that they've never faced in all of human history
And I think as people that are now existing within this world where they do want to see everything
They want to make literal exploitation part of their business model
We have to stand up and fight back and say not only do we not want to do this it is both illegal and
Unconstitutional and we refuse to comply with these idiotic orders that are destroying frankly society on a whole today.
I'm imagining someone listening to this who says this sounds great, and I'm excited to hear it, but
I'm Working 10 11 hours a day
I'm struggling
What's in it for me and my family if you know if I become a node in this network or kind of contribute to these cypherpunk
values? Ultimately what's in it for me and my family and my community?
Yeah, I mean, it's network effects
you know the more people who join the stronger the network becomes
you know I think a big part of
The reason why these systems work, and this is a cypherpunk
Value is that we understand that code that is widely dispersed
You know software that is running on tens or hundreds of thousands of machines all around the world in many different jurisdictions
Cannot be shut down
There is at least as of today no one world government, and we can use that to our advantage
we also should understand that while governments can portray themselves as having
Massive amounts of power and they certainly do in certain cases
The people are far more powerful than the government's the problem that I believe
society has had for pretty much all of human history and organization is that it has been collectively very
difficult for the individuals to come together and
To to fight against a government that is actually much weaker than the individuals in aggregate
but the great thing about cryptography about writing these new protocols is that they enable a new level of communication and
Coordination amongst people all over the world regardless of what language we speak
We are essentially saying we are now speaking this one common language
and it doesn't matter if the government wants to stop us they cannot silence us because we're using math and
You can't fight math
And so it's what you're saying. Also that there's a two sides to the same coin. We're you know taking back this power
The flip side of that is at the same time. You're just taking back your own property like you become
Master of your own future more is that also what you're saying?
Yeah, and I mean, I'm even I'm even seeing this as you know, we are creating new opt-in
voluntary societies
It's an amazing thing
Because I often think of cyberspace versus meatspace and meatspace
You know governments have this monopoly of violence and power but only within their specific meatspace
Jurisdiction we are operating in cyberspace and we reject the meatspace powers
They can try as much as they want, you know to control our physical bodies
But they can't control how we communicate and coordinate with each other
You're here. Well said Bruce.
yeah, I mean it's like Jameson said, you know that
The mass of people should have the power and do have the power and have more power than the tyrants who currently
Exercise power over us and the more people that participate
running nodes and think even if you feel like you don't need to
The more people that participate the more it becomes a thing. It's it's like the you know, it's like the bicycles here in in Amsterdam
It's it's really cool to see people commuting
Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bicycles outside my hotel in the morning and you see them all over the streets
You know locked up and that's not practical in like San Francisco
Your bike would get stolen and they don't have the trails and things like that
But once you have a critical mass you change society for the better
And I think everybody would agree that all these bicycles are better than not having the bicycles
But why don't other cities have it you need that critical mass and it's the same with money
we need to opt out of this tyrant money the broken filthy fiat and have a
money that we control and that
It causes all kinds of additional benefits to society
Almost any problem you can think of somehow relates to the printing of fiat
And almost everything you good you can think of in the world comes from voluntary interaction. So everybody participating in the network
We're just moving towards as simple and corny as it sounds. The reason is it makes it a better world
it's so interesting you bring up the example of the bicycles because
If I'm if I remember right the the critical mass of adoption in the Netherlands as far as bicycle adoption was achieved
During the occupation in the wartime when when there was a huge crisis, then there are very little
Means available and so people went back to the basics. And so maybe that's a you know, a little
Foretelling of how Bitcoin is going to be widely adopted
Eric yeah on that same points
I think it's really important to understand that
like one of the primary mechanisms where our government is very powerful is through their methods and modes of propaganda and
That's been one of the things that I've very much had people
Maintain this division between were national identities that our politics are right left that we have to fight each other for control
And I don't believe that's true at all. I think it's much more of a split this way
I think all people everywhere have much more to gain with working with each other and the recognition that
The tyranny of the United States government is much similar to the tyranny of say the European banking system and that they both have fundamental
exploitative visions to steal from their citizens under the guise of saying hey
This is for good stuff. And for me one of the primary reasons I got into Bitcoin
It was I'm an anti-war activist and I felt
very angry that my money was taken for me to go make war against people that I had never met before and
Now with Bitcoin if I choose to put my wealth into Bitcoin
there is at least a module of general resistance that I can have towards that and
On the critical mass note as more and more people start to understand
Hey Bitcoin can really help us in these terms and circumstances and very similar to the war note that like
With inflation being endemic a lot of people need to escape from this. My hope is as they escape
They'll start to use Bitcoin and they'll go. Hey, it turns out that this is actually a much better money and moving forward
We'll actually start to design more and more systems to be valuable to other people so they can choose to opt out and that we
Can choose to build the circular economies together that will allow for us to have a much more successful and robust
Society where our values are much closely aligned with each other than rather with our own governments
Yeah, that actually leads me into my next question
You know 75 years ago this place where we sit was occupied territory
during the Second World War
And so I was wondering like what are your thoughts on God forbid, of course, but if another war broke out in Western Europe
Some of these tech technological tools that we're talking about some of these networks
Would it make things differently today? Like if that broke out like would it give people different tools different options?
And yeah, what are your thoughts?
Well, it's far more difficult to control the flow of information these days
Information wants to be free. You can of course go the China route and try to have a great firewall
But even that is not going to be 100%
Perfect at stopping everything that they want to control the amazing thing about the Internet and and even about Bitcoin
You know in order now to economically interact with people
We only need to be able to send, you know
A kilobyte of data somehow and while most people who are using Bitcoin are doing that through the Internet
That is by no means the only option we have people who have
transmitted Bitcoin transactions, you know via radio waves and basically ping them off the ionosphere
Sent them, you know to someone thousands of miles away. This is the level of freedom that
This communication enables for us like there is no government or physical power in the world that can you block?
the exchange of data at that scale
So you're saying basically like propaganda would be less efficient and also people would be able to hold on to their savings more
There will definitely still be propaganda and you know, that's a whole other issue
but you know if you want to call it the truth or you want to call it, you know, the
Free exchange of ideas and interaction that is something that is much more difficult
For governments to control with today's technology. Got it, Bruce
Yeah, I mean now all the the tools are great and can definitely help a lot
The key is in times of war
Tragically, you know people are totally focused on their own survival and it's a hard time to adapt, you know new tools
You have to make it easier, which is all the more reason we need to build now
You know, you don't want to be teaching somebody in a war zone. Hey, here's this new thing
It's called Internet money and blah blah blah. You want them to already know how to use it and everything
So I think it's key to you know, move fast so that we can keep ahead of this and and hopefully
You know if there is crisis and there is crisis is in the world. Hopefully people will look to this technology
Yeah, I mean if we go back to 1913 in Sarajevo and you're like, hey this this place is about to go down real bad
Most people be like, I I just don't see it that way life's pretty good trades high. I can't foresee that
Year later, you know the full-on World War one is happening
And I think it's very important to understand that such circumstances are starting to threaten Western Europe to this day
And I think it's very important that not only do you teach yourself the mechanics of how Bitcoin works right now
But also other technologies like PGP technology because like if you have a government surveilling you who wants to stop you
It's very important that you can have end-to-end encryption and know through the protocols directly that those things can offer
Protection and then furthermore there becomes a much greater ability for you to then transact and you know
What would be black markets under these conditions like if you can't buy fuel anywhere and you need to flee the country in your vehicle?
Well, hopefully you'll have some Bitcoin on you and you'll say look
I'm more than happy to pay you 10 euros a liter to get a little bit of gas here so I can get out
But to me, it's very important that like if you're in the conditions of war it yeah
That's not the time for you to start learning these new tools because you need to be the anchor for your community that understands this
So when this crisis does happen you can help everyone that you can and I think it's very important that everybody in the audience
Here understands like you're part of the individuals that understand the importance of this
Technology and you need to give this to your community not because of number go up
But so that government cannot imprison you when that's what they want to do
Yeah in the in the practical sense like since you know the the Ukraine invasion like we've all read direct stories of Bitcoin errs in
Ukraine who used Bitcoin to to get out or like look after their families like this is very real like this is real real
Technology. Well, we've seen multiple examples of the traditional financial system those rails being cut
Yeah, you know that is one of the first things that that gets
Taken down is in war, you know, you want to cut off the access of your enemies to as much resources as possible
But we still see, you know people being able to donate Bitcoin and to use cryptography to to basically bypass those restrictions
Yep, we have three minutes left. So just some rapid-fire questions
Jameson imagine you have a million people around Europe who want to know, you know, how to what they can do specifically
They have four hours available for you every year and they're gonna do whatever you tell them to do to you know, become a node in the network
What would you tell them to do and their budget is 500 bucks?
500 bucks. Yeah, buy a cheap laptop for probably 150 200 bucks. That'll be your your best bang for your performance
to be able to actually run the software and then of course go to Bitcoin page and just go to the
Running a node page and that you'll get all of the instructions you need
To you know in a matter of clicks, it's all there. Awesome. Awesome
Bruce somebody a European comes to you and wants to participate in an election campaign on a Bitcoin ticket
He's in the elevator with you. You have 30 seconds. What are your recommendations to them?
Well, you know I ran for Senate in the US last year
I didn't mention Bitcoin too much Bitcoin has a a mixed brand among the general public
A lot of people are still, you know, 10 years behind on it
So I spoke mostly about money first and the problems with the broken money system
And then you know what I said at the you know when I was at this same conference in Miami
Right after I announced I was running I said if you really want to help don't don't be a politician or donate to the politicians
Take your five or ten or fifty dollars and buy more Bitcoin
Because opting out is the best way to starve the beast and and starve the tyrants
Awesome
Eric last minute here. What is I mean you just written a book but still what is another book you would like someone to write in the sphere of
Cypherpunk thinking or what's a college course that you would love to see someone teach
Bigger than a college course. I would actually love to see sort of a Bitcoin focused university
That's going to have all the cross-disciplinary education going on from art to literature to cryptography
Computer science to sociology and philosophy and then get to kind of have all the cross-disciplinary
Pollination happen there because I truly think that it is the exchange of ideas
Not just in our fields of interest
but across the way that we'll sort of get the most fruitful pollination and
Really start producing some really wild and interesting content that will help shift and push the culture forward in a way that I think would be
Very important and powerful. So that's something that I would love to see
Erik Bruce Jameson, I thought this was riveting. Please give it up for our panelists!